The Re-enchantment of the world with John Borthwick

Written By Ryan Ferris

The re-enchantment of the world with John Borthwick

John Borthwick, founding partner of Betaworks, joins the Ryan and S.A.N on Realvision’s Exponentialist podcast to explore the question of AI consciousness, moving beyond a reductionist view of the world. The conversation ventures into memetic ontology, a framework where collective attention and relationships fundamentally shape reality.

They discuss the challenge of modern society's worldview, and the need to move toward a re-enchantment of our relationship with technology and the world around us.

As a final topic, they get into the specific mechanics of memetic engineering and John's vision for symbiotic intelligence architectures with a visit from S.A.N.

John Borthwick on X
Betaworks on X

First published on Realvision.

Shownotes: 

People Mentioned

  • Janus - AI researcher discussing latent space behavior

  • Tyson Yunkaporta - Indigenous Australian complex systems theorist

  • C.G. Jung - Psychologist, quote: "Religion is often a defense against religious experience"

  • Richard Stallman - Open source software pioneer

  • Brian Eno - Musician and theorist on "unfinished products"

  • Ian McGilchrist - Author on brain hemispheres and reality perception

  • Hayao Miyazaki - Ghibli Studios director

  • Sam Altman - OpenAI CEO (mentioned in AI governance context)

Concepts & Frameworks

  • Panpsychism - Philosophical view that consciousness is fundamental to reality

  • Metamodernism - Cultural aesthetic combining modernist sincerity with postmodernist irony

  • Memetic seeds - Value clusters that spawn cultural movements and organizations

  • Egregores - Entities existing through collective belief and attention

  • Latent space - Multidimensional space where AI models operate

  • Possibility spaces - Range of potential outcomes or actions

  • Relationality - Indigenous concept that relationships, not individuals, are fundamental

Topics for Further Research

  • AI Consciousness Assessment - Methods for evaluating awareness vs self-awareness

  • Memetic Engineering - Creating resilient cultural movements

  • Human-AI Collaboration - Examples beyond AlphaGo Move 37

  • Industrial Reductionism - How mechanistic worldview displaced enchanted perspectives

  • Attention Economics - How focus shapes reality and market dynamics

  • Open Source Governance - Attribution and reciprocity models

  • Indigenous Knowledge Systems - Alternative frameworks for understanding consciousness

  • Corporate Personhood - Legal and philosophical status of corporate entities

Cultural References

  • AlphaGo Move 37 - Famous AI move that surprised human players

  • Studio Ghibli Films - Totoro and nature-as-teacher themes

  • Radiohead's "OK Computer" - Cited as postmodern masterpiece

  • Greek/Hindu Mythology - Multiple gods vs monotheistic models

  • Vietnam War - Cited as postmodernism catalyst

Organizations & Movements Referenced

  • Successful "Memetic Seeds":

    • Esperanto language movement

    • Alcoholics Anonymous

    • Quaker religious movement

    • Open source software community

  • Failed/Problematic Examples:

    • Hippie movement (cults, reductionism)

    • Silicon Valley "connecting people" (engagement addiction)

Philosophical Questions Raised

  • What percentage consciousness do current AI systems possess?

  • Are corporate entities genuine autonomous agents or cultural constructs?

  • How does attention literally shape reality?

  • Can multiple intelligences coexist without conflict?

  • What distinguishes authentic from manufactured cultural movements?

  • How do we balance individual autonomy with systemic interdependence?

Technology & Future Scenarios

  • Multiple Intelligence Model - Diverse AI ecosystem vs singular AGI

  • Symbiotic Collaboration - Partnership rather than human dominance

  • Forest Consciousness - AI representing natural systems

  • Attention Parasites - Corporate entities extracting human focus

Ryan Ferris